Fix your links http://mindseyes.net/

*edit* damn the finns are fast.

Last edited by Gener_AL (UK), Mon, 11 May 2009 12:25. Reason : so slow!

Quote from JeffR :

That's not the point of the GPU's. Multi-core cpues will deal with the x86 stuff. Where GPU's can help is with stream processing like operations where parallel calculations can be done. For example the physics calculations of multiple cars done in parallel, using GPU's on a PC similar to the math units of vector processors

Yes i understand the basic principles, is it that perhaps GPU's are heading back to software rendering, what i mean is the fusion of both the GPU/CPU in theory (with the limited knowledge i have) would bring the whole thing back around.

In the thread "elepahnt in the living room" i asked a question regarding the tyre physics and what percentage of CPU cycles it would consume?
Again leading speculative discussions, if no-one has solid figures.

Quote from AndroidXP :

@Gener_AL (UK): I think you're "missing the point" here
[list=1][*]This is a serious "what if" issue you bring up here.
[*]I'd say good market saturation to consider dropping non-physics-accelerated GPU support would be at least 5+ years from now on, not mid 2011 (I think you implied that, regarding the vertex shader remark).
[*]Speaking of vertex shaders, consider that AFAIK the first cards supporting it (GF3 IIRC) were released in 2001, and I believe LFS still supports cards without HVS. Just the option to turn off HVS manually was removed in patch X or so.

Yes i do agree market saturation or adoption rate whatever you want to call it, is the determining factor.
Regarding HVS option, I had assumed that with the removal, LFS required it.
(I also assume that performance takes a big hit without)
Going back to the adoption rate. I think really a more pratical and comparable element to hardware required for LFS is the ratio of users that purchase a wheel, in relation to length of time owning LFS.

Quote from AndroidXP :

All this considered, any thoughts about GPU accelerated physics are pure speculation. I'm sure the devs have no friggin' idea what they're going to do in regards to such a specific case in two yet alone 5+ years from now on. What answer do you expect? "Maybe?" "Not likely?" There's no point discussing this.

Yes its speculative and whats wrong with that? Without communication we would be in the dark ages no? Sorry if i sound like I am arguing, I just think its good to take a few educated guesses now and again.
I dont expect any awnser from the devs. I hope/
What can i say I am curious about the future hardware and its possible affect on the future of LFS.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Even if we magically had this feature in all cards from now on, what would be the point? To make use of this the first thing you need is highly complex physics to make the change worthwhile. At the current development speed LFS doesn't even add basic features that would be no issue CPU wise, what makes you think LFS will have enough substance to make this change necessary at any point? Maybe if they were to simulate individual pebbles on a gravel road...

Chunks of tyre falling off, dynamic track surfaces & debris & damage. Yes we can argue about LFS dev speed, so lets not. (as i dont think a discussion about dev speed will end any other way but in arugement)
Again lets look at the possible positives and keep a lookout for the cliffs edge.
I think LFS has a lot of potential, and yes given the right conditions to flourish, it may need to adopt a new approach.

Quote from AndroidXP :

IMO GPU physics were intended for one thing only, namely optional physics based GFX effects. Eyecandy. Making it do more doesn't really make sense. What's there left for the CPU to do then? Multicore support makes sense and it's a reasonable expectation to have this implemented in the future. GPU physics... not.

I do agree with you here, even the most high profile games with GPU physics have been a total letdown. UT3, Mirrors Edge (step in the right direction )
But we are repeating ourselves here. (see first post) and reply to JeffR in this post, as i think come 2011 the lines between the CPU/GPU will blur a little more.

ugh more coffee needed.

Quote from kingfag :

You don't need a physics accelerator if you just want driving physics. A modern CPU is capable enough to do that.

If you do want millions of physics objects, cars that fall apart to the last screw and 4096x4096 pixel textures for something the size of a traffic cone, than yes, a physics accelerator might come in handy to offload the cpu. But i hope LFS will focus on decent driving physics.

By the way, those accelerators only support rigid body physics. The most difficult part of LFS's physics are the tires, which aren't rigid bodies.

Yes the point i made about offloading intructions to the GPU is IF they become x86 compatbile.
Not to mention off loading all the rigid body to GPU perhaps enable a much deeper implimentation of the more complex tyre physic code. Scawen has mentioned debris and damage, this also would benefit and encourage this "offloading" ?

Last edited by Gener_AL (UK), Mon, 11 May 2009 10:26.

Quote from bunder9999 :

i'm going to take a stab in the dark and say "probably not", for two reasons:

1) LFS doesn't consume much CPU to begin with, it's still runnable on low-end machines as long as they have a somewhat decent video card.

2) DX has always been backwards compatible. even if DX11 ships with W7, it should still be able to support LFS.

while i can't speak for sca/vi/er, i can't see them dropping everything to turn their code inside out to support the latest versions of everything, just because they exist.

1) I disagree here. Maybe with a few cars things. Put that to 32+ online its a horror story on older machines. Maybe under 30 FPS is ok for some, but personally anything less then 60> locked is again horrible.

2) Yes but emulated. If you check the RC7100 of W7 you will find thats has DX11.

> I dont expect LFS to ever change to DX11. The question is if? and if so how? and as we are doing now ... why.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Why would they? The physics calculations now take about 5% CPU time - most slowdown is caused by the calculations the CPU has to make for the graphics. If you fast-forward in a single player replay, LFS uses all CPU just for physics, and it easily manages to do that faster than realtime even with loads of AI cars.

Also this would be a major major task. It would make much more sense to make LFS multicore compatible than making a copy of the physics engine that probably needs to be considerably altered to even run on the graphics card. Don't forget that you then have to maintain two physics engines, one for the people with such a card and the other for ones without. The benefits are practically zero.

Yes thats the issue as its has always been with game developement on the PC, from my experience. But thats not really the point android. It is always a chicken and egg kinda situation with this.
Does LFS not require a shader compatible card? (vertex)

I agree with the multicore notion, but i expect in the next few years that GPU is going to be X86 compatible. If you look at that PDF intel seem to be pushing this hard.

Like i said originally this isnt somthing to happen overnight (unless scawen grows a 2nd brain and four arms & clones a copy of that) Im looking mid 2011
here

CPU physics ughh or mmmm hot coffee.

Game physics is at the heart of any modern game engine which employs the laws of physics to simulate life ....... Read more

DX11 is looking good for simulators with CS (Compute Shaders). I think the main problem with the current physics hardware is cross platform compatability, with both AMD Nvidia and Intel all pushing for their own interpretation of how it should be implimented. So far current games with the havock/physx API have really been quite dissapointing. So is this more hype and less content that we continually see from much larger publishers?

If you got time to read the asscoiated pdf Scawen, Eric or Victor and time to waffle, I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Again this also goes out to any other experienced programmers/developers or physicians, or if like me your a bit of a geek.

It seems almost a lifetime since the introduction of a 64Bit OS and single Core machines are in their last years of life for gaming. But we still have a lack of native 64bit games and still the majority of games do not utilise the multiproccessing capabilty of modern PC's.

Windows 7 is only half a year away from release (if you look at the current progress of developement) Shipping with DirectX11.
I know the sound system and a few other things perhaps had to be re-written for Vista, i guess my main questions are...

With LFS having such a small team of Developers, are you looking to adopt the DX11 API at some point in the next few years?

If so where and what do you think are the benefits?

Do you see the GPU as means of Offloading physics within LFS in the future?



Anyways, as usual coffee is now stone cold >

Quote from rc10racer :

First off all what do you have AGP or PCI-E? what gfx card do you have now? whats the most you can spent?

Ahh yes, just noticed it was AGP. Pretty much screwed if AGP for choice and price/performance imho.

What system do you have running Sueycide_FD?

Get the ATI-4770

I've had some great battles in the TBO ranks past and present, and had my ass handed to me on a plate many times. Many memories and moments of ""(&$! invalid object" "!&!(!!!!!!!!!$U(!$&.

I used to think why bother hotlapping, but it has many rewards as frustating as it can be. But for myself it extened the life and playability for the game as a whole. The functions available to the user regardless of speed/skill in LFSworld really can help you improve your driving.

Thinking about that idea of archives again, having Eza above me in all the TBO cars acrchived forever in the history of LFSworld .... i dont think i could carry on with life ....

Anyway being a little more serious now, keep pushing it guys

Quote from Bob Smith :

.....
could the fast heating yet slow cooling be attributed to a lack of cooling effect by the air, as the tyre passes through it? I would still expect a tyre to be heated a lot faster than it is cooled though.

I have long thought that tyres warm a little too fast and cool a little too slow. This would affect everything, no? the optimal driving style/heat/wear?
This combined with the scale of temperatures displayed which again i think would be/is incorrect itself in theory if the cooling is not effectivley reproduced?
What im saying is for example. The road super used optimal temp 55-65c Maybe this range of behaviour for given for the model is slightly short or needs more expansion? Without data from scawen or more infomation about how the system works. Its quite hard to really pinpoint somthing and say whats wrong with the tyres. Although at some point I do hope to see more infomation on work in that area, as do many of the posters and readers of this thread do i guess. But secret sauce is mmm secret.
Swiftly changing direction here with the tyres and not my steering wheel and looking a little forward. We know that the contact surface of the modeled tyre is broken into 3 channels across the width and divided 16 times giving 48 contact points for each tyre.
Interesting that the point of tyres falling appart being brought up a few times in this thread and ones in the past.
I'm guessing one day these sliced tyre segments could be used for LFS to have rubber fall off dammaged surfaces. (quick somebody wake me up)
Where was I, ahh yes. More segments perhaps could help the tyre physics? balancing out the load produced when "givin it some". (thinking aloud -i wonder what ratio of cpu usage is dedicated to tyres within LFS.)
I am no expert in the science behind the maths or vice versa or real race experience, but i do have a fair amount of LFS roadsuper experience and recall the first public S2alpha and a few subsequent builds thereafter.
Back then tyres were much much easier to pop faster to heat etc, then it is presently. Or was it my driving and car setup from s1 that created that
Its a long long time since ive tested or looked at infomation regarding the changes to tyres, or tested any old version, it could just be me and one of those days.It is odd though whilst typing this i swear it was 2006 for a moment. Perhaps its was, ....well it feels so long since there was a good discussion about tyres.
cue the whitemen in coats "were all going on a summer holiday"

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

This one always takes me back to Wigan Pier 1994. This was THE guaranteed floor filler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... 8mXs4&feature=related

White gloves, whistles, liver failure, flourescent tabards, heart palpitations, bottled water vs lager sales ratio of 300:1...

Happy Days

0.0 There may be a very small ... ok .. mm maybe no chance we have bumped into each other then but you never know.
I'd be the dude wearing a (e)hat or straw hat, kinda odd looking and a little crazy no idea why .. but i aquired the name "messy al" back then.
Dont suppose you remember names "big john on one" carried a horn at all times, or that crazy dude keith from cricketers nightclub? or those three sisters LSD (lisa sarah and diane or smth) all regulars on friday nights 94-96. Anyways truely happy happy days and many strange stories.

anyways cant believe this has not been linked anywhere in the various music threads.

The Creator !

Last edited by Gener_AL (UK), Thu, 7 May 2009 13:26.

Quote from [DUcK] :

lol, settle down, good sir.
all i was saying is that the devs are prolly gonna update patches at the worst time possible and delete all the hotlaps.
i didnt bring it to our attention because not all of ray's times were awesome, and i couldnt give two shits about it then. now the times are definitely coming down to where they should be (for a MHR list).

Yep i think its getting much tighter at the top in MHR. I dont think there is a perfect time though regarding a patch breaking the charts.
The last time it happened was the FXO and XRT and RB4 as far as i can remember (cog xrt/rb and tyre width for FXO) Around that time norbi and csimpok and of course teh nub jonesy were battling it out for the top of the MHR table/rank.

Anyways that should only motivate the hotlapping addicts to pushing out faster laps before that moment comes and im sure there will be some notice (i hope) that the charts are being wiped.

Which again brings me to another point, slightly off topic but important i think none the less. It would be nice to have the charts recorded in an archive each time its reset.

Quote from Jonesy_ :

wtf ya'll still congrazing him?

shhhhhhh you!
Get back to 3rd place or smth dude

Did common sense die in the 80's?

Well done Arrechee, You let your driving do the talking

A few real old skool tunes.

The Fly

Get Busy Time

Dominator (remix)

Gat Decor (passion)

Dream Frequency - Moog Addiction

and one more Dream Frequency tune

I had always thought the reasons appart from the engineering side as to why it takes a while, is so that your details are all added to big brother.

Quote from Glenn67 :

The button clutch is not faster but it does net faster lap times

ok can we not go round in circles please. Sorry to point out you Glenn, I hope you dont mind. I'm feeling a bit ill today so forgive me if sound off.

"ATTENTION"

The point of this thread was to highlight the change of leadership in the overall WR holders table in LFSworld.
As usual the points of handbrakes and button clutch and marcos appear.
Some of the more logical posts in this thread are skimmed over, whilst the obvious things that could be done are rarely a path taken by the majority of posters in many threads.
What do i mean? I mean instead of arguing the points of what makes a person faster, lets use this forum to make this argument take a different direction for a change.

Anyway, back to the point.
So what is all this about, its about being no1. I think we can agree on this yes? ok.

But what are we no1 at?
Using a wheel with custom view and using a steering lock of 180 degrees?
ok so maybe your not, but someone might be. It still takes skill to produce a fast lap regardless if they push that speed envolope a little further, its only natural to use what you can.
Or maybe you like using full manual gears, pedals, shifter, cockpit view and 1:1 ratio for steering lock as defined by the car being used.

Now either way if your enjoying your driving it makes little difference what you use, thats the beauty of LFS. I started playing LFS with the mouse and loved my 9 months in the land of demo world.
Then i found out about LFSworld and i could no longer wait, the thought racing with the FXO .. I was sold.

Fast forward to 2009 and 3 operating systems later, 4 wheels and god knows how many upgrades to PC hardware, I am still playing LFS.
The leadership in the WR chart has been a wonderful thing to watch over the years. and its no wonder people take hotlapping seriously, just as much as they do it for the fun and pleasure.
The excitement as a new patch is released and the physics are bust Those first few months for hotlapping is golden, the period after is when it really starts getting serious

Now as it stands LFS World has a basic WR chart, regardless of controller and helps etc.
What i propose is to keep this, but also perhaps have the ability to manipulate the wr leader table simply by applying the filters applicable to things like autoclutch, wheel , mouse, keyboard.
The only person that can do that btw, is a driver i know that I recently competed against, who by co-incidence, uses ... ah damn it.. lets just call it hardcore mode (cockpit hshift clutch etc)
My point is that there is a time and place to put forward arugments about whats right or wrong, or who.
as there are ways of doing things and talking to the right people. Easy in theory but as practise dictates, bad habbits can be formed.
I just think that if LFS World had such a filter for the WR table as mentioned a little earlier, this arguing over control method and styles may not have occured perhaps.
Anyway hopefully I've not bored you to death here, If i have i pass my regards on to your family and friends, hopefully i have their sympathy.

/me reports evil grin to thought police

Quote from Tur8o :

LOL really?


my PB is a 1:41.35 if you dont beleive i will post MPR


Tur8o

Calm down, I think we are discussing hotlaps here (SPR) not "personal best" (MPR)

Using LFSworld is the best way in my humble opinion to connect to servers, not to mention the buddylist & filters and wealth of infomation a click or two away.

I still wonder if the devs will incoperate LFSworld as an ingame browser, it would be nice for those with one monitor and compliment the games interface further.

no the 6200 is basically a rebadged 5200. Steer well clear.

I would reccomend for AGP an ATI 3850 or 3650.

http://www.lfsworld.net/?win=h ... r=&country=&abc=6

That link will show the top hotlap times for the XRT (you did not mention which vehicle).
The Abreviations shown at the top of the table indicate controller type, and driver helps, in this case the abreviation AC = Automatic Clutch is what your looking for.

Sounds like the cached shaders created when starting crysis with previous hardware. You have removed all old save games folder or moved/backed up to another location? (usually my documents/my games/crysis etc)

Appart from swapping out hardware/ have you tested a different OS? (maybe create new hardware profile & user profile) also check stability in safe mode/
Have you installed anything recently, maybe do a rollback?